Curse

draxynnic · Jul 08, 2008, 03:05 PM // 15:05

I'd probably be inclined to move Generation 3 to Generation 2.5 (it's unclear just how old they are compared to the others - humans, for instance, may actually be as old as the Forgotten for all we know, just arriving in Tyria at a later time. There is no mention of humans being created anywhere in the timeline - the first mention is 'colonising' Cantha a thousand years after the appearance of the serpents, implying they came from somewhere else.) Dwarves I'd be tempted to move up to Generation 2, or even Generation 1.5 along with the Destroyers - events in EOTN imply that they were created as a form of counter to the Destroyers, but were put in a flesh-and-blood form in order to multiply afterwards. If it wasn't for the Stone Summit rebellion, they may not have needed help to fell the Great Destroyer... but I digress. The point I'm making is that, while it is possible they were made after the Ancient Dragons went into hibernation as an insurance policy, it seems likely they were made for the actual fighting.

This makes Generation 3 the Titans, Margonites, and Wardens, the first two are known to date from the time of the war between the gods, and the Wardens appear to have evolved from humans putting them firmly in a 'later' category. The Oni, if they did in fact only appear after the Jade Wind, should probably remain pushed back to Generation 3.5, or maybe even lumped into Generation 4 with the Sylvari. (Chronologically, this makes sense - the Jade Wind was only 200 years ago while the Margonites were created over a thousand years ago - the Oni are thus closer to the Sylvari in age than the rest of Generation 3 with the possible exception of the Wardens. The difference between 'appeared before the game' and 'appeared afterwards' is a difficult one to ignore, though.)

Konig Des Todes · Jul 08, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

I think you misunderstand the point of the .5 generations that I put in. Those generations are meant as "offshoot" generations, beings created originally by those in the generation directly above them.

The Forgotten, Seers, Charr, and Mursaat are known to be Ancient, the other races are not proven to be ancient, but might be. The titans is really the only iffy "race" in consideration of the placement. There are races that might go into Generation 2 that are in Generation 3 (Dwarves and Asura mainly), however how old they are is not yet proven. I would think that the Dwarves at least can go into the Generation 2 category, but as it cannot be proven, I put them into the category we know they can be in, same for the Asura.

You seem to be taking the .5 generations as later generations than the one above it, but earlier than the one below it. This is not the case as I said above.

draxynnic · Jul 09, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Actually, I was taking them as 'later, but not a LOT later'. There is, for instance, a gap of at least two thousand years between your generations 3 and 4, while the line between 2 and 3 is heavily blurred.

Still, by your logic, Dwarves would definitely appear to be 1.5, as all indications appear that they were made as a weapon against the (servants of the) Ancient Dragons. The Titans become interesting... one could argue that they should be 1.5 as well, being created by Abaddon, but they were created from the souls of later generations...

...although... Idea!

What if the Titans are Generation 1.5, and those serving Abaddon were a corrupted version of the original design, with the originals being used by the old gods in the war against the Titans? Under this interpretation, and coincidnetally bringing the discussion back on topic, the Mursaat-Titan antagonism can be traced back into antiquity by hypothesising that the Mursaat were actually a servitor race to the Ancient Dragons... which would certainly explain why they were so eager to stamp out worship of the gods.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 09, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Actually, I was taking them as 'later, but not a LOT later'. There is, for instance, a gap of at least two thousand years between your generations 3 and 4, while the line between 2 and 3 is heavily blurred.

Still, by your logic, Dwarves would definitely appear to be 1.5, as all indications appear that they were made as a weapon against the (servants of the) Ancient Dragons. The Titans become interesting... one could argue that they should be 1.5 as well, being created by Abaddon, but they were created from the souls of later generations...

...although... Idea!

What if the Titans are Generation 1.5, and those serving Abaddon were a corrupted version of the original design, with the originals being used by the old gods in the war against the Titans? Under this interpretation, and coincidnetally bringing the discussion back on topic, the Mursaat-Titan antagonism can be traced back into antiquity by hypothesising that the Mursaat were actually a servitor race to the Ancient Dragons... which would certainly explain why they were so eager to stamp out worship of the gods.

The first half, I only have one question on. How is my logic leading to the Dwarves being an "offshoot" of the Gods? That being, gods later becoming Dwarves, which is how I set up the Generation set-up. Humans can become Margonites, Oni, or Wardens (amoung other things), souls (currently, of any race) can be twisted into Titans.

The second thought, you lost me completely. Abaddon twisted Titans (which are, by nature already twisted), and the Old Gods used the original Titans in the war against the Titans? There is no "War against the Titans," the only wars the gods were a part of, as we know, are the Old Gods vs Abaddon, which led to (or combined with) the Forgotten vs Margonites. There is no mention of the Titans in a war that I recall, except for antagonizing the Charr to attack the Humans, but that is far from a "war against the Titans."

Also, what support do you have for the Mursaat being followers of the Ancient Dragons? I would like to think that the concept of Abaddon being a Mursaat before god-hood - which caused the other Mursaat to think that they can ascend to god-hood, which led to them abandoning the Old Gods - is a much better hypothesis. Or the idea that the Mursaat are "the lesser of two evils" and don't follow any gods but themselves (a combination of atheism and egoism), and guard the Door of Komali for whatever possible reason there is (fighting Abaddon or not knowing what is behind that gate, but knowing it will lead to their destruction). Those later two ideas have a little more standing then the Mursaat worshiping the Ancient Dragons, especially how there are no dragon references in the Tarnished Coast, and one very small one in the Maguuma Jungle.

Gmr Leon · Jul 09, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

...All of you have lost me. It seems incredibly unlikely that the Mursaat ever followed Abaddon, although it's a possibility considering he is a God of Secrets, Water, and Knowledge. All of which really seem to fall in line with traits of the Mursaat, that is knowledgeable, secretive, but water only fits in that it is powerful magically. As mentioned by Bahltek in the Mehtani Keys.

An interesting thought that came to mind while reading this, about the Jade the Mursaat use in their structures on the Ring of Fire Islands Chain and Abaddon. Abaddon and the Five Gods had their war over how Abaddon distributed the magic and they sealed Abaddon in the Realm of Torment then sealed the aspects of magic he wrongly distributed into the Bloodstones. The Jade the Mursaat use has a similar shade to Abaddon's armor, this same Jade can be seen on or above the Bloodstones. What if, and this may simply lie in the fact that Abaddon is far too huge to display entirely in-game, his body/armor was used to create the Bloodstones?

In relation to the Titans and their age..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotten Warden

Titans, ancient creatures dating back nearly as far as my own kind, have broken free of their imprisonment. While they plague this realm, many Margonites escape us. The forces of light must stop these Titans. Do you have the will? Will you take up the mark of the light and fight?

And about the generation thing..

I think it goes:

Earliest specimens known:
Gods
Ancient Dragons
Giganticus Lupicus

Early specimens:
Glint
Forgotten-Summoned from across the Mists
Charr
Titans
Mursaat
Seers

In-between Early and Middle:
Dwarves

Middle specimens:
Humans
Tengu
Wardens
Margonites
Druids
Asura
Norn
Dredge
Grawl
Oni
Centaur

Final specimens:
Sylvari

Those groups are in order from age. Oldest being first and youngest being last.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 09, 2008, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Thank you for finding that source Leon, I knew there was a mention to them being as old as the Forgotten, but couldn't remember where.

And for the generation thing, that's basically what I meant(except for the Dwarven placement of course), but I included subspecies, which all came from other species being twisted or changed in some way. And you just expanded it to include the other sentient and semi-sentient(I'm looking at you Grawls) as well in the list.

draxynnic · Jul 10, 2008, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

The first half, I only have one question on. How is my logic leading to the Dwarves being an "offshoot" of the Gods? That being, gods later becoming Dwarves, which is how I set up the Generation set-up. Humans can become Margonites, Oni, or Wardens (amoung other things), souls (currently, of any race) can be twisted into Titans.

Essentially, by apparently being directly created by the Gods as a weapon, the same way Primordius apparently created the Destroyers as weapons. Most races, however, are not so directly tied to the gods - according to history, even the Forgotten were brought here from elsewhere rather than created.

Quote:

The second thought, you lost me completely. Abaddon twisted Titans (which are, by nature already twisted), and the Old Gods used the original Titans in the war against the Titans? There is no "War against the Titans," the only wars the gods were a part of, as we know, are the Old Gods vs Abaddon, which led to (or combined with) the Forgotten vs Margonites. There is no mention of the Titans in a war that I recall, except for antagonizing the Charr to attack the Humans, but that is far from a "war against the Titans."

Also, what support do you have for the Mursaat being followers of the Ancient Dragons? I would like to think that the concept of Abaddon being a Mursaat before god-hood - which caused the other Mursaat to think that they can ascend to god-hood, which led to them abandoning the Old Gods - is a much better hypothesis. Or the idea that the Mursaat are "the lesser of two evils" and don't follow any gods but themselves (a combination of atheism and egoism), and guard the Door of Komali for whatever possible reason there is (fighting Abaddon or not knowing what is behind that gate, but knowing it will lead to their destruction). Those later two ideas have a little more standing then the Mursaat worshiping the Ancient Dragons, especially how there are no dragon references in the Tarnished Coast, and one very small one in the Maguuma Jungle.

It's a wild theory, I know, but it goes roughly like this:

You say the Titans are twisted creatures by definition, but do recall that's just from the viewpoint of all mention of them being after Abaddon's fall. Before then, the practise of creating Titans may have been more wholesome than it was afterwards.

Furthermore, there's the question of just what the Realm of Torment actually is. We see it as a prison, but Kormir didn't simply seal it back up after she ascended - she's instead trying to take over. Why? Well, why was it used as Abaddon's prison in the first place? Could it be that what would later become the Realm of Torment was Abaddon's realm before he rebelled, and the other gods simply sealed him up within - thus, Kormir needs to take possession in order to fully regain his power rather than having an empty-for-millennia Realm of knowledge to move to?

Taking this viewpoint, we have the Titans... which, with our current knowledge, were created as weapons by Abaddon, but which according to the Forgotten are similar to them in age. Could they have been creations of Abaddon early on? If so, what were they made for?

Which brings us to the Mursaat. By all evidence, they're not loyal to Abaddon, or they shouldn't have had anything to fear from Abaddon at all. But they're clearly not loyal to the gods, either - in fact, the prime servant of the gods, Glint, was willing to allow a weakening of Abaddon's prison in order to allow the Titans to wipe them out. Why?

Maybe the Gods know that the Ancient Dragons are stirring, and this has all been a Xanatos Gambit to prepare for this. One obvious benefit they've gained is a replacement for Abaddon. But with the Mursaat being a third faction entirely, seperate from both Abaddon and the Five, is it that much of a stretch to consider that the Mursaat may be connected to the third big faction out there? Under this interpretation, the willingness to loose the Titans upon the Mursaat makes more sense - they didn't really seem to be out to make humanity extinct during Prophecies, but if they were going to rally to the Ancient Dragons when they awoke, taking such risks to take them down makes more sense.

And then we come back to the Titans themselves... which, apparently, just happen to be the perfect weapon to use against the Mursaat. If the reason for this was that they were originally created to use against them, this both explains their age and their abilities. Maybe they, and their process of creation, was less 'evil' than it was after Abaddon's fall, or maybe it was just as bad and the gods felt the ends justified the means - possibly creating them from the souls of volunteers who fell to the Mursaat.

This line of thought meanders across the timeline a bit, so to help organise it, this would be the series of events:

1) Conflict between the Ancient Dragons and the Gods
2) The Gods find that the Mursaat are decimating their own servitors with Spectral Agony.
3) The Titans are created in Abaddon's domain as a counter, but for one reason or another, are not able to wipe out the Mursaat at that time.
4) The Seers continue fighting the Mursaat without the aid of the Titans, but are slowly losing. At some point (possibly after #5, and possibly this whole point is after #5, with the war being conducted alongside Titans until Abaddon's rebellion) the Mursaat take over this side of the Door of Komalie and fortify it to prevent the Titans from being used against them again.
5) Abaddon rebels, and is imprisoned within his domain. If the Titans were ever 'good' creatures, they are twisted by this process, with further Titans being created by the torture of souls unlucky enough to end up in Torment.
6) Glint puts the Flameseeker Prophecies into action, allowing the Vizier to trick a group of heroes to allow him to reach the Door before those same heroes disperse the Titan armies thus released before they can do too much damage to anyone other than the Mursaat.
7) Kormir ascends
8) As the Ancient Dragons take over large parts of the world, the White Mantle, and possibly survivors of the Mursaat, continue to harass Kryta.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 10, 2008, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Essentially, by apparently being directly created by the Gods as a weapon, the same way Primordius apparently created the Destroyers as weapons. Most races, however, are not so directly tied to the gods - according to history, even the Forgotten were brought here from elsewhere rather than created.

Your mis-interpreting what I meant as an "offshoot." By what you said, all of the races are "offshoots." As they are all created, whether as weapons or not, by the gods. That is not how I meant it. As I said, humans can become the "offshoots," Gods do not become something else, so there would be no "1.5" generation in accordance to my list.

Note: For a summary of what I'm saying, just scroll down to the bottom of my post.

Quote:

It's a wild theory, I know, but it goes roughly like this:

You say the Titans are twisted creatures by definition, but do recall that's just from the viewpoint of all mention of them being after Abaddon's fall. Before then, the practise of creating Titans may have been more wholesome than it was afterwards.

There is no evidence to support this, so it's more of a hypothesis then a theory

. Also, I do not believe that the Titans were created by other means, as, like I said, there is nothing to support this, and most of the Titans we know of were created before the fall of Abaddon (and if any are created after his fall, those created before his fall are the same as those after).

Quote:

Furthermore, there's the question of just what the Realm of Torment actually is. We see it as a prison, but Kormir didn't simply seal it back up after she ascended - she's instead trying to take over. Why? Well, why was it used as Abaddon's prison in the first place? Could it be that what would later become the Realm of Torment was Abaddon's realm before he rebelled, and the other gods simply sealed him up within - thus, Kormir needs to take possession in order to fully regain his power rather than having an empty-for-millennia Realm of knowledge to move to?

This is actually what I took the Realm of Torment to be like. Before Abaddon's imprisonment, I believe that the Realm of Torment was not what it is now, but became morphed due to his agony and frustration at his imprisonment.

Quote:

Taking this viewpoint, we have the Titans... which, with our current knowledge, were created as weapons by Abaddon, but which according to the Forgotten are similar to them in age. Could they have been creations of Abaddon early on? If so, what were they made for?

Note: It never said that Abaddon created them, it is said that Titans are made from Tormented Souls. It could be a natural formation, like with the Menos from Bleach, where a bunch of hollows fight each other and then merge together. Titans can be formed from a number of Tormented Souls merging together.

Quote:

Which brings us to the Mursaat. By all evidence, they're not loyal to Abaddon, or they shouldn't have had anything to fear from Abaddon at all. But they're clearly not loyal to the gods, either - in fact, the prime servant of the gods, Glint, was willing to allow a weakening of Abaddon's prison in order to allow the Titans to wipe them out. Why?

I think the Mursaat are more Atheist than followers of the Ancient Dragons. They never mention the Ancient Dragons, not even in Eye of the North, and they never really mention the Old Gods either. As far as we know, the Mursaat have no knowledge of the Gods or the Dragons, and can just be acting as gods in order to fulfill their needs, such as trying to prevent the extinction of their race, foretold in the Flameseeker Prophecies.

Quote:

Maybe the Gods know that the Ancient Dragons are stirring, and this has all been a Xanatos Gambit to prepare for this. One obvious benefit they've gained is a replacement for Abaddon. But with the Mursaat being a third faction entirely, seperate from both Abaddon and the Five, is it that much of a stretch to consider that the Mursaat may be connected to the third big faction out there? Under this interpretation, the willingness to loose the Titans upon the Mursaat makes more sense - they didn't really seem to be out to make humanity extinct during Prophecies, but if they were going to rally to the Ancient Dragons when they awoke, taking such risks to take them down makes more sense.

If the gods knew that that Ancient Dragons were stirring, wouldn't they try to prevent such a thing before they woke up? Also, why would the Gods want the Titans freed? They were only freed to fulfill the prophecies. And yes, it is that much of a stretch really. With no proof, it will always be a big stretch, and I'm sure the Mursaat fanatics over at GWO would flame and rip apart this argument of yours until no tomarrow. Also, I think it is safe to say that no race worships the Ancient Dragons out of two reasons. First, the Ancient Dragons are older than the first known race to be on the world of Tyria, the Forgotten, the only race that might have served them would be the Giganticus Lupicus. Second, it has been said that the Ancient Dragons do not care for any life in the world, they only care about themselves and bringing about destruction. They wouldn't have a need, and probably wouldn't want, an "inferior" race serving them.

Quote:

And then we come back to the Titans themselves... which, apparently, just happen to be the perfect weapon to use against the Mursaat. If the reason for this was that they were originally created to use against them, this both explains their age and their abilities. Maybe they, and their process of creation, was less 'evil' than it was after Abaddon's fall, or maybe it was just as bad and the gods felt the ends justified the means - possibly creating them from the souls of volunteers who fell to the Mursaat.

Note: The Eidolons have a natural resistance to the Mursaat as well, it is not just the Titans. With that said, it could be coincidence, or it could be the fact that Titans are from torment, so agony doesn't phase them. It seems that they were created by themselves, not as a weapon. Also, seeing how they are from the Foundary of Failed Creations, if they were weapons, why would they be "Failed Creations?" Seeing how they would have been able to do their job. There is also the fact that the Seers and the Titans are also enemies, so the idea that the Titans were used to help fight the Mursaat is out of the window in terms of helping the Seers.

Quote:

This line of thought meanders across the timeline a bit, so to help organise it, this would be the series of events:

1) Conflict between the Ancient Dragons and the Gods
2) The Gods find that the Mursaat are decimating their own servitors with Spectral Agony.
3) The Titans are created in Abaddon's domain as a counter, but for one reason or another, are not able to wipe out the Mursaat at that time.
4) The Seers continue fighting the Mursaat without the aid of the Titans, but are slowly losing. At some point (possibly after #5, and possibly this whole point is after #5, with the war being conducted alongside Titans until Abaddon's rebellion) the Mursaat take over this side of the Door of Komalie and fortify it to prevent the Titans from being used against them again.
5) Abaddon rebels, and is imprisoned within his domain. If the Titans were ever 'good' creatures, they are twisted by this process, with further Titans being created by the torture of souls unlucky enough to end up in Torment.
6) Glint puts the Flameseeker Prophecies into action, allowing the Vizier to trick a group of heroes to allow him to reach the Door before those same heroes disperse the Titan armies thus released before they can do too much damage to anyone other than the Mursaat.
7) Kormir ascends
8) As the Ancient Dragons take over large parts of the world, the White Mantle, and possibly survivors of the Mursaat, continue to harass Kryta.

The Bolded parts are what I cannot agree with. First, as I stated, they are made from Tormented Souls, not by the gods. Second, as stated, the Seers and Titans are enemies. Third, there is no mention of the Titans being used in the war against the 5 Gods, only known forces are the Margonites. For the Underlined part, the Door of Komali had to of been way after Abaddon's imprisonment, seeing how the Door is sealed by the Bloodstone, which was made after Abaddon's fall. Also, it was at least 20 years after the Exodus that the Volcano erupted and spread the Bloodstones around.

Overall, the main things that can shoot down your argument, are:
1) The Seers and Titans are enemies.

2) The Titans are not created by Abaddon, but by Tortured Souls, as they are made after Abaddon as well, his realm just became the new place for them (it is possible for Titans to be created anywhere that has tortured souls, most likely in mass).

3) Titans are held in the Foundary of Failed Creations, and if Titans were meant to be weapons against the Mursaat, than they wouldn't be failures.

4) There is no mention of the Mursaat worshiping the Ancient Dragons, not even in Eye of the North, they act as though they really are gods (in other words, they have BIIIIG egos).

5) It is most likely that the Mursaat only kept the Titans locked up because of the Prophecies, which were just random visions that Glint had, she never pointblank stated that she wanted the Titans released, she said that it was going to happen, and it did. She just played the role of the active observer really.

GourangaPizza · Jul 10, 2008, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Adam Mursaat turn one of his ribcage bones to Eve Mursaat. And they woohoo with each other all night long to produce Baby Mursaat. Thats how it begins.

draxynnic · Jul 10, 2008, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Overall, the main things that can shoot down your argument, are:
1) The Seers and Titans are enemies.

2) The Titans are not created by Abaddon, but by Tortured Souls, as they are made after Abaddon as well, his realm just became the new place for them (it is possible for Titans to be created anywhere that has tortured souls, most likely in mass).

3) Titans are held in the Foundary of Failed Creations, and if Titans were meant to be weapons against the Mursaat, than they wouldn't be failures.

4) There is no mention of the Mursaat worshiping the Ancient Dragons, not even in Eye of the North, they act as though they really are gods (in other words, they have BIIIIG egos).

5) It is most likely that the Mursaat only kept the Titans locked up because of the Prophecies, which were just random visions that Glint had, she never pointblank stated that she wanted the Titans released, she said that it was going to happen, and it did. She just played the role of the active observer really.

Just replying to the individual counters:
1) Abaddon and the Five Gods are enemies. They weren't two millennia ago. The same could be true for the Seers and Titans - that the Seers realise the Titans are a danger to everyone now doesn't mean they couldn't have worked together when Abaddon was playing nicely with everyone else.

2) Do we actually know how a Titan is created? If it IS spontaneous, than clearly the theory that they were a weapon of the Gods is shot as they create themselves independant of the gods. If they need to be shaped by someone else - Abaddon's servants or former servants, for example - then the hypothesis is still good. So the question here is - do they form spontaneously, or does there need to be something to shape it?

3) Abaddon didn't seem to think they were failures...

This could explain why they weren't used until the Flameseeker Prophecies, though - if there was something about them that made them unsuitable to be used at the time they were made, that Abaddon either fixed or didn't care about.

Really, we don't know how the Foundry got its name. It might be connected to something else entirely. (Yes, that's grasping at straws, but it's not impossible.)

4) There's very little mention of the Mursaat at all. it's not impossible that this is something in the Mursaat's history that they don't care to advertise... or maybe that they've forgotten themselves. But really, all we know of the Mursaat (outside of their combat abilities) is that they sacrificed Chosen to power their constructs, were the power behind the White Mantle, and can apparently split their essence into their followers to hide.

5) Possible... especially if, given 3), they were never actually deployed. However, Glint did more than just pass on the predictions - she informed the Seers, and while they helped clean up afterwards, they were actively involved in getting the players to the Door. The impression I get was that Glint not only made the prophecies, she and her allies were actively involved in making them come to pass.

Free Runner · Jul 10, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

1) Abaddon and the Five Gods are enemies. They weren't two millennia ago. The same could be true for the Seers and Titans - that the Seers realise the Titans are a danger to everyone now doesn't mean they couldn't have worked together when Abaddon was playing nicely with everyone else.

Actually the Seers and Titans are never reffered to as a common enemy. The only time a direct Seer vs Titans plot comes out is when the Ancient Seer wants the Armageddon Lords ,who are leading the forces into the portals, destroyed. So it is true they could of once been neutral to each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

2) Do we actually know how a Titan is created? If it IS spontaneous, than clearly the theory that they were a weapon of the Gods is shot as they create themselves independant of the gods. If they need to be shaped by someone else - Abaddon's servants or former servants, for example - then the hypothesis is still good. So the question here is - do they form spontaneously, or does there need to be something to shape it?

A Titan is formed by Tormented Souls clumped together and it then takes on a construct that changes with its environment. It would appear the Margonites are executing Forgotton Prisoners in there in order to form Titans, with The Fury commanding them.

However the Foundry was not always known as the Foundry of Failed Creations - it used to be a prison to the Margonites before Abaddon began regaining his ground allowing them to break free and The Fury to twist the Foundry into what it is now. So it would appear the Margonites are helping the creation of Titans but we dont know where the original origin of the Titans was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

3) Abaddon didn't seem to think they were failures... This could explain why they weren't used until the Flameseeker Prophecies, though - if there was something about them that made them unsuitable to be used at the time they were made, that Abaddon either fixed or didn't care about.

Really, we don't know how the Foundry got its name. It might be connected to something else entirely. (Yes, that's grasping at straws, but it's not impossible.)

See above. I always thought the Foundry was only given the name Failed Creations by the Forgotton who view the forming of Spirits into such monsters a "failed creation". Abaddon has obviously put the Titans to good use in the destruction of Arah and the Flameseeker Prophecies and doesnt view them as failures - they make up a large part of his forces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

4) There's very little mention of the Mursaat at all. it's not impossible that this is something in the Mursaat's history that they don't care to advertise... or maybe that they've forgotten themselves. But really, all we know of the Mursaat (outside of their combat abilities) is that they sacrificed Chosen to power their constructs, were the power behind the White Mantle, and can apparently split their essence into their followers to hide.

That is true we dont know anything about the Mursaats history leading up to their win over the Charr in Kryta. We know they had knowledge of the Prophecies but we dont know how they gained that knowledge.

draxynnic · Jul 10, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Actually, doing a bit of research cropped up this tidbit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relkyss the Broken

This is what the world would be like if demons stitched together a number of failed realities to create a home for themselves. It is the Foundry of Failed Creations, and houses the Fury, his demon enforcers, and the spirits of broken prisoners.

So that's where the name came from. The failed creations are the location, not what's in it.

Also:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relkyss the Broken

The Fury uses demonic troops to torment the souls of the prisoners within these walls. Those tormented souls are part of some dark ritual to create powerful titans.

That implies to me that the Titans don't arise from tortured souls spontaneously - some act if creation is in fact required. So they're not formed by tortured souls but rather formed from them.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 10, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

It should also be noted that all information we really get is biased about the Mursaat, the Realm of Torment, and basically all of our enemies. Because we get our information on what our allies - mostly the Forgotten in this case - know, we only know so much about them. However, what my main point is that, with the little we do have, such stretched out theories should not be considered until we have more information.

Also, about the "dark ritual" to create Titans. First, it says powerful Titans, not all Titans. Second, that is as far as the Forgotten know, so it may not actually be accurate. Also, it is possible that "clumping together" (as Free Runner calls it), like the Menos from Bleach do (the Menos fight each other and evolve from constantly consuming other Hollows), is the "dark ritual." To some, the gladiators were "inhuman" due to the nature, just like that, the merging of souls to form twisted beings can be seen as "dark" by the Forgotten.

Not to mention the definition of "ritual," which one meaning is: "any practice or pattern of behavior regularly performed in a set manner" (defination 8 of dictionary.com, the rest being books, religious rites, and whatnot). By going with either a "religious rite" or a "behavior regularly performed," it can easily be done without the interference of the Fury and his minions, or they can simply provoke the souls into doing them. In other words, a ritual can be performed spontaneously, with or without the help of those not taking part in the ritual (in this case, the Fury and his minions).

Gmr Leon · Jul 10, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Something interesting that should be taken into consideration is the fact that the Fury is a follower of Dhuum. Dhuum was overthrown by Grenth due to being unjust and torturing souls just for the sake of torturing them. From this fact, it may be that Dhuum actually discovered the Titans or created them himself while torturing souls. His unjust actions could possibly have been research for all we know.

About the Mursaat and the Ancient Dragons. That connection is tenuous at best, impossible at least. The Ancient Dragons were not thought up until at least the time of Eye of the North's creation, the game not the actual structure. This being the case makes it practically impossible to connect the Mursaat to them unless they retcon the story to make this the case. However, as it is now with the little bit of fashioning they've done to the story, they've made it very clear they want to avoid connecting existing pieces of the lore to these Ancient Dragons.

Probably because they knew it would sound outrageous that all of a sudden the Ancient Dragons exist and guess what? They've been connected to all these existing beings without any mention!

Also, and I know this response is rather random but that's the way I do things, about the Titans formation. Are you referring to their physical formation or their spiritual? Either way, Free Runner and Azazel have already given the actual story behind that.

The Seers..We know just about NOTHING about. We know they've existed as long if not longer than the Mursaat because they waged a war against them. Other than that, we know nothing. A good point you made about the Seers, though, is that they were sort of "informed" by Glint. I personally wouldn't say informed, but they knew of the Flameseeker Prophecies. This is especially interesting, considering this one comment by the Seer we meet in the Iron Mines of Moladune. The comment being: "If the prophecies are to be believed, you will do what my entire race could not."

If the prophecies are to be believed. Why, exactly, would they need to be believed? That's the question that consistently comes up whenever I hear this comment from the Seer.

In relation to the Realm of Torment comments..I think it's safe to say that it was created as soon as Abaddon was banished there. It was a very quick job done by the Gods it would seem, but it was done as soon as they knew they had Abaddon on the verge of defeat. My only evidence to support this is the fact that many things were pulled down there with him, why would this be the case if it was already his domain? And why would there be gates locking him into his own realm? The only thing I can find that really swipes the legs out from under this belief is the description of the Shadow Nexus..

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Shadow Nexus

The Shadow Nexus is but a single shard of reality left behind by the Five Gods when they imprisoned Abaddon. Once used to control access to his realm, Abaddon has turned their clever scheme upon them and now uses the Nexus to send his foul spawn of Torment to invade other realities.

...At any rate, I think this pretty much covers my thoughts over the last few bits of discussion.

draxynnic · Jul 11, 2008, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Well found, GmrLeon. It's possible that they started with Abaddon's domain and added more around it in order to make a prison, but that does imply they at least did more than simply binding Abaddon and sealing the entrances.

Interesting theory regarding Dhuum and the titans, too. As for "if the prophecies are to be believed" - I don't think this means that the prophecy needs to be powered by belief (even though they did - they came to pass because the Vizier believed them. I have a suspicion Glint didn't release the part about him dying and the Titans being sealed away again, or maybe he thought he could avert that) just that the Seers aren't 100% certain that they're going to come true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

It should also be noted that all information we really get is biased about the Mursaat, the Realm of Torment, and basically all of our enemies. Because we get our information on what our allies - mostly the Forgotten in this case - know, we only know so much about them. However, what my main point is that, with the little we do have, such stretched out theories should not be considered until we have more information.

Oh, we certainly don't have enough information to consider it to be confirmed. But We don't have enough to disprove it either. It's still a possibility.

Quote:

Also, about the "dark ritual" to create Titans. First, it says powerful Titans, not all Titans. Second, that is as far as the Forgotten know, so it may not actually be accurate. Also, it is possible that "clumping together" (as Free Runner calls it), like the Menos from Bleach do (the Menos fight each other and evolve from constantly consuming other Hollows), is the "dark ritual." To some, the gladiators were "inhuman" due to the nature, just like that, the merging of souls to form twisted beings can be seen as "dark" by the Forgotten.

Not to mention the definition of "ritual," which one meaning is: "any practice or pattern of behavior regularly performed in a set manner" (defination 8 of dictionary.com, the rest being books, religious rites, and whatnot). By going with either a "religious rite" or a "behavior regularly performed," it can easily be done without the interference of the Fury and his minions, or they can simply provoke the souls into doing them. In other words, a ritual can be performed spontaneously, with or without the help of those not taking part in the ritual (in this case, the Fury and his minions).

Essentially, this means we don't know for sure whether its spontaneous or not. The way I read it, though, it seems more likely that the Titans need to be created, although it is entirely possible that the Fury's minions simply put the building blocks together and let nature take its course.

However, that there is the possibility of this hypothesis being true doesn't discount mine. We just have two mutually exclusive hypotheses, neither of which can be proven at this time.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 11, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

About the Prophecies, I think they "need to be believed" because they don't seem to be complete to each individual. I think that only certain parts were let out, mainly the trek from Ascalon to Kryta, the Ascension of the Chosen, the Ascendants fighting the Mursaat, the Shiverpeaks being "covered in blood," the Ascendants opening the Door of Komali which "holds a power to kill the Mursaat," and finally that power being the Titan Army.

Not all parts were known to all people, as if the Seer knew, I doubt that s/he would help the Chosen in releasing the Titans. Another concept to support not all of the Prophecies were known, or together, is that there is no singular collection of the prophecies, and Khilbron would probably avoid brining his own death (unless deep down inside he just wanted to die, but that's unlikely).

Also, points to Leon for remembering that part about Dhuum. I would have to think that Dhuum probably made the first titans, and that they serve him over Abaddon, but he "lent" the Titans to Abaddon to help him escape and get revenge.

And at Draxynnic, I wasn't saying your idea is impossible, I was saying it was unlikely, at least to my belief. (I really wish ANet can put in something to help explain this stuff).

Gmr Leon · Jul 12, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

There is a singular collection of the Flameseeker Prophecies, but they're only with Glint. If you look on the timeline provided in the Nightfall Manuscripts you'll see a date and line saying, Glint compiles the Flameseeker Prophecies. 272 AE, to be exact.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 12, 2008, 03:41 AM // 03:41

I was ignoring Glint when it comes to having the Flameseeker Prophecies really. Because obviously the one who made them should know the whole prophecy. But just because Glint knows the whole prophecy, doesn't mean that she did when she told certain groups (mainly Mursaat and Seers in this case) and it doesn't mean that when others learned of it, that it was from a completed source.

Even the wording in the timeline proves that Glint didn't know it all at once, compiles means putting together basically, so she had to put together the visions she had that became the Flameseeker Prophecies.

draxynnic · Jul 12, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

And at Draxynnic, I wasn't saying your idea is impossible, I was saying it was unlikely, at least to my belief. (I really wish ANet can put in something to help explain this stuff).

In that case, we agree. I'm fully aware that it's a pretty wild theory.

ACWhammy · Jun 18, 2010, 05:34 AM // 05:34

I just finished Saul's story and was wondering what happened to Saul?

I read some older posts but they are a little outdated and wanted to know if anyone had heard if Anet had released information about him showing up in GW2, or if he is part of the Ghosts of Ascalon book.

Do you think Anet left him alive for a reason? Or did they just decide it would be too brutal to kill him in the storyline and dont necessary have any plans for him?

AC